QQuix - Evolving Society Mod [WIP]

[QQuix]

I need contributions from creative minds!

I have been nourishing this idea of a large island that starts completely wild and untouched and, at the end, if the player plays right, turns out into a big business with plantations, cattle and small villages all over the place.

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NEW MOD SPECS - as of March 2010  (the original post is at the botttom)

After working for more than a year on several aspects of the mod, I am ready to put them all together now.

But, first of all, I want to thank again everybody that posted on the mod forums. I've been classifying the ideas and suggestions from the community. I must have read every single phrase at least half a dozen times and I think I got them well organized for future reference.

The specifications below are the result of merging my initial idea with many others that improved and complemented them. There are still many other ideas and suggestions kept in a wish list for future use.
 
The specifications below are the 'best scenario' for the first Beta version of the mod.
Apart for some small adjustments, I don't intend to add new concepts during this phase.
I may drop some of the concepts described if they prove impractical for any reason.

Some comments up front:
The mod scripts will be based on my NPC ACE (adapted to these specs) and my Construction Suit (Beta testing)
No NPCs enacting their trade (with the possible exception of the farmer, as I already have it [video])
No interiors - NPCs will go in and out, but the player will not go in - possible exceptions:
•   the Inn (as the player will recruit there),
•   the Theater (again, because I already have it - [video])
•   and of course, the Player's Villa and Player's Office (see description)


1.   GUIDELINES
Playable at any Player level
No interference from current game state
No interference to current game state
   Kind of a semi-TotalConversion? Or would it be a Semi-Conversion? lol
1.1.   Player role
From the very beginning:
Must have the right to order NPCs around
Must have the right to determine what will be built
Must have the right to determine where to build and which architecture
   Therefore: Medieval Lord and serfs  (maybe Owner and employees)

2.   GAME MECHANICS
Game relies on a few major components:
Player - recruits NPCs, builds/improves/relocates facilities, manages the island
NPCs - the inhabitants of the island: a few that arrive with the PC and others recruited from a steady flow of visiting NPCs
Facilities - The places that, somehow affect the life on the island. Most require an NPC and produce some kind of material (e.g Food, brick), product (e.g ships) or service (e.g security). Some are required to go beyond a certain level (e.g sewer, granary).
Food - required to keep the population alive
Materials - Raw materials are used to build simple building (stone and logs) and to be transformed into more advanced building materials required for better buildings (bricks, planks and metal parts)
Indicators and Satisfaction - Several aspects of the island live are represented by indicators, which directly affect population satisfaction and, indirectly, affect productivity. A dissatisfied NPC works slower and may, on extreme cases, leave the island.
 
The player will influence the speed and direction of the community growth by:
•   Creating and upgrading the facilities
•   Recruiting and assigning NPCs to the jobs
•   Keeping the NPCs happy, creating services facilities as the community grows more sophisticated.
•   Providing the required inputs (e.g. weapons and armor for the guards)
•   Providing optional inputs to improve production (side quests to be defined)

The player will have a 'Player's Office', a kind of War Room, from where the player will follow the evolution of the community.


3.   FACILITIES
Each facility needs one or more NPCs to run the business.
Facilities are built at the lowest level and may be upgraded to higher levels as the NPC gets more experience.
Required materials must be available to build and upgrade facilities.


3.1.   Extraction Facilities
Produce food and raw materials (logs, raw stones and ore).
•   Farm
•   Forest
•   Quarry
•   Mine

3.2.   Processing Facilities
Specialized facilities to process raw materials into advanced building materials
•   Sawmill
•   Masonry
•   Foundry
•   Smith

3.3.   Production Facilities
Specialized facilities that create products.
•   Shipyard
•   Wood works
•   Stone works
•   Metal works

3.4.   Service Facilities:
Specialized facilities that provide services.
•   Boarding House >> Inn >> Hotel
•   Chapel  >> Church >> Cathedral
•   Healer >> Apothecary >> Hospital
•   Barracks

3.5.   City Improvements (don't need an NPC)
•   Granary - required to store food
•   Sewer - required to upgrade buildings
•   Dock - required to import/export and attract more visitors
•   Armory - required to store guards weapons and armor
•   Parks and other city beautifications
•   Public baths - enhance Health
•   Public lights - enhance Security
•   Paved Streets
•   Paved Roads
•   Theater
•   Outposts to contain wildlife

3.6.   HOUSES:
Where the NPCs live.


4.   THE CITY
When creating new facilities, the player will choose the position and angle of the building, as well as the building size and architectural style.
The higher the facility level, the more options the player has.
Within the available building options for the facility level, the player may move the buildings around and change style at no cost, any time (just aesthetics).

Besides the facility buildings, the player will have a choice of adding some other constructions that will affect the community, like parks, street lights, city walls, etc. These constructions consume building materials.

And, very cheap or free, the player may add all kinds of beautification to the city: wells, trees, fences, flowers, benches, etc. No limits here. Anything! I mean it! Anything she can find in the game, she can add to the city.

For those that enjoy it, creating, improving and tending the city visuals may be a game all by itself.


5.   NPCS
5.1.   Hiring
NPCs will show at port and stay at the inn for a few days  -or-  naufrages?
Player may recruit / hire them and assign them a job.

5.2.   Leveling
NPCs will accumulate wealth, change status and will be more demanding over time
NPCs will accumulate experience on the activity and will be more productive over time.
Wealthy NPCs may hire other NPCs as workforce or house servants

5.3.   General
When assigned a job, will occupy a free facility, if available
When assigned a job, will occupy a free house, if available
There is a chance of NPCs moving together depending on the house level
May demand better house to match his/her status (or be unhappy)
May demand better work facilities to match his/her experience (or be unhappy)

5.4.   Attributes
Each profession has a major attribute that determines how well an NPC performs his/her tasks:
Strength - for Farmer, Lumberjack, Stone miner and Miner
Intelligence - for Carpenter, Mason, Smelter, Smith
Agility (craftsmanship) - for Shipbuilder and Wood, Stone and Metal artisans
Personality - for Innkeeper, Cleric, Healer
None - for Guard

5.5.   Production
NPCs will go to work at the beginning of the day if:
•   Has 1 food   -or-    work at half speed + dissatisfaction
•   Has a work facility
•   Has raw material, if applicable

At the end of the day:
•   Add product to warehouse or record the services provided
•   Go home - if has one
•   Go to the inn - if  there is an inn + mild dissatisfaction based on status
•   Sleep in the streets + dissatisfaction based on status

The quantity produced at the end of the process cycle is variable and will be affected by:
•   The NPC attribute
•   The NPC satisfaction
•   The experience of the NPC
•   The level of the facility
•   The presence of optional objects and knowledge subject of side quests [to be defined] 
 

6.   CURRENCY
Cyrodiil gold has no use in the island

There will be some scripted, invisible indicators of the economic activity that could be considered as a currency;
As such, we could say that from the 'payment' of a day's work:
•   Part goes to the worker - as a lifelong indicator of wealth / status
•   Part goes to the owner of the facility - as rent
•   part for the city treasure - as an economic indicator
•   part to the Lord/Lady - as a guideline for gradually building the player home as a reward for the job well done (or game well played).


7.   INDICATORS AND SATISFACTION
7.1.   Personal Way of Life
Affected by
•   Food      -   cumulative 10% dissatisfaction per day without food
•   House   -   10% dissatisfaction per difference in NPC status x House level
•   Facility   -   10% dissatisfaction per difference in NPC experience x Facility level

7.2.   Personal Services
Affected by availability of ⁽¹⁾
•   Bar         
•   Bath
•   Theater

7.3.   City Services
Affected by availability of ⁽¹⁾
•   Security   -   Barracks, city lights, security force size
•   Health   -   sewer and health care facilities
•   Religion   -   shrines and religious facilities
•   ??      -   parks and city beautification

7.4.   Economy
Affected by
•   Production    -   Moving average of the daily production in units of material
•   Treasury    -   Moving average of the daily production in units of currency
•   Population    -   Moving average of the population size

(1) Moving average of the daily state of 1 point per building level, weighed by NPC status


8.   MATERIALS
Materials are stored in a global, virtual warehouse to be used by processes, consumed or exported

8.1.   Food
Food is used to keep the population alive.
A quantity of food is consumed every day by each individual resident in the island

8.2.   Wood cycle: Log >> Plank
Wood is mostly used to build/improve houses/shops (initially) and boats/ships (later)

8.3.   Stone cycle: Stone >> Brick
Stone is needed to build simple houses. Brick to upgrade them

8.4.   Metal cycle:  Ore >> Ingot >> Metal parts
Metal parts are needed to improve houses/shops (initially) and boats/ships (later)


9.   MILITARY
Military forces affect Security Indicator
Military facilities affect Security Indicator
Citizens act as militia, until replaced by pros

9.1.   Weapons and armor
Central armory, when built
Guards choose the best equip every morning
Player may add equipments to Armory

9.2.   Building / Facilities
Barracks
Armory
Watchtowers
Walls

9.3.   Ranks
Guards will go up in ranks according to the general rule

9.4.   Pirates/bandits raids:
Pirates and bandits attack every once in a while
Nearby guards run to face them.
Citizens will complement the force, if necessary, or run inside.
Player may help
Unpredictable outcome
Outcome determines destruction of buildings / improvements / goods

9.5.   Wilderness
Hostile beasts in the wilderness will keep away from improved areas after the player does a first 'clean up'.


10.   REWARD: PLAYER'S VILLA
At some milestones along the way, the happy subjects will offer their leader a new building for the Playes's Villa.
The player will choose where to place it and will be able to 'decorate' the Villa exterior the same way he/she gives better looks for the city.


11.   BEGINNING
The player arrives with a few NPCs so they can raise the island to a level that justifies visitors (that will be hired to increase the population)
The lore is still open.


12.   ENDING
Events toward the end of the mod are still fuzzy and will be better defined when there is a working prototype to test.


That's all, folks . . . I hope I did not forget much . . . comments are appretiated, as always


[This same text has been posted in the three mod forums: Bethesda Softworks Forums - TES Nexus Forums - The Wormhole Forums ]

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 Original post (19-Nov-2008)


[I created this topic in TES Nexus Forums – If you want to contribute with some ideas feel free to do it either here or there]
Hi everybody!

I have been nourishing this idea of a large island that starts completely wild and untouched and, at the end, if the player plays right, turns out into a big business with plantations, cattle and small villages all over the place.

Unlike most mod requests, I think I can handle most of the technical stuff (except modeling), but I am no good at all with words: creating story lines, plots, quest etc is alien to me, even in my native language. I could not even come up with a good title for this mod/thread. The subtitle is shamelessly cloned from Lisnpuppy.

That is why I am asking for your creative ideas for the main storyline, the side quests and the works.

To make sure this is possible, I will spend the next couple of months 'probing' the feasibility of the many technical features that will be needed, like how to turn a forest into farmland, how to get settlers to work the land, how to dynamically place rows of some plant so it looks like a farm field, etc.

During this period, I would love to hear the ideas you may come up with. Just dump your ideas in this thread.

These are the major guidelines I will stick to, so let's stay within their boundaries:

• The mod is intended to mimic a small, Middle Age settlement growing into a medium-sized city, including its effect in the surrounding area.
• There is no Main Quest as we know it. The player will need to manage and balance a few aspects of the game to keep things going. The player plays the cards right, the community flourishes. Plays it wrong or leaves things unattended for too long and things dry and shrink.
• The evolution (grow or shrink) should be based on player's decisions, not on player's actions. Although some decisions may require some actions.
  
• No big hero, savior of the world deeds. The need of the player's combat/magic abilities should be kept to a minimum. Maybe take care of some wild beasts or clean up a mine, at most. But even these could be done without the player.
• Side quests should be normal, every-day events/situations the player has to deal with (like a bad crop or a neighbor’s quarrel). Some may need some kind of compromise from the player. Some, if left unattended, should interfere with the evolution.
• No sexual/adult/mature ideas, please. In this area I can be very creative all by myself, thank you.
• [I will add more as they occur to me]

The remaining aspects of the mod are open.
These are some of my ideas, so you can get the picture of what I am talking about:

MAIN STORYLINE
I am not sure whether the player should be:
(1) Lady/Lord of the Land and the NPCs her/his subjects. Player rules from a throne room. Subjects are granted audiences to present their problems (side quests). Main quest balancing would be discussed with a group of ministries.
(2)  Mayor of the community. Hears rumors of problems and has to go somewhere to solve them. Main quest balancing would be done by passing laws and regulations.
(3) Anything in between . . . or a mix of both . . . or something else altogether.

How would it start? The obvious "player finds a map of a lost island"? Would the island society start from a few natives or the player must hire a few initial settlers from mainland?

I imagine the end being an island with a fair sized city (with a nice port, some local commerce, etc) and a few peasant villages scattered over the island. Most of the area used for production and some wild life reserves to keep the environment healthy.

Is there a need for a storyline/lore to get from the beginning to the end?

And, of course, a good name for this mod is in order!

EVOLUTION - GAME BALANCING

My original idea was a farm island, so the player would have to collect a certain quantity of whatever ingredient to work as seed (say 100 strawberries). The peasants would clear a piece of land and grow strawberries (the land would initially show the peasants working on it and, later on, show ordered rows of strawberry bushes). After some time, the peasants would harvest the strawberries and the player would take it to a major city to sell (later on, as the community grows, this would be done automatically by merchant ships coming to the island)

To start this process there must be enough free peasants available, money to pay them,  . . . what else?

Much later, if the player chooses to invest in it (money?,  time & effort?, resources?), there would be an Alchemy Factory of sorts and the crops could be sent there and the resulting potions would be sold for a higher profit.

A similar concept could be applied to
- mining > smithing > weaponry
- cattle > food > clothing?
- Forests > timber > houses
 
At first, the player should do the hard work (like collecting seeds and selling the crop). Later on [maybe as a result of a side quest or based on the evolution level] some/all of these things will be done automatically [like a specialized  peasant will do it or a immigrating merchant will provide the seeds and buy the crops]

What would the player gain/profit/achieve from being a good manager/ruler? Money? (I don't think so). Going up ranks within the community? Some very special items that would only be produced by the community at certain stages? Just the feeling of achievement?

What kind of things will be monitored and have to be balanced? I suppose some very basic society needs like:  happiness, food supply, shelter, public health. Ideas?

SIDE QUESTS (some ideas to start with)

Some of the farm tools disappeared. Crop is in danger.
Production is low because a wild beast is attacking the peasants in the fields
[some NPC] is depressed because his/her companion is cheating on him/her
(. . . what did I tell you about my creativity? . . . )

It would be nice to have some (or all) side quests that would improve one aspect of the people needs while being bad to some other area. Like the player deciding one way it would improve general happiness but reduce production. Deciding the other way would have an opposite effect.

[YES, I am roughly think along the lines of the Civ/AoE games. Not the tech advancement or conquest aspects, just the growing communities. Maybe closer to The Settlers game of several years back.
NO, I am not trying to reinvent the wheel or creating a whole new game. I just hope that it will be possible to figure out a small set of rules (within the game engine capabilities) that will make this kind of evolving mod possible]


I suppose this brainstorming phase is where one finds most of the fun of creating a mod. I have my fun figuring out ways to make things happen in the game. Later on, actually creating the mod is mostly hard work.

So, let's get to work . . . hum . . . have some fun.

And don't worry whether it is possible or not. Make it happen is my job.  [. . . well . . . just don't go overboard]

I don't intend to interfere much with the huge (*fingers crossed*) flow of ideas, besides some shameless thread bumps here and there. See you in a couple of months, when I hope I will have some of the technical building blocks figured out and ready to go.

[BenNM]

I wanted to do something like this on a smaller scale - one village.
Player participation could (theoretically) help it thrive and grow or not.

For your main storyline, consider the player as mayor or a similar office.
This puts the player in the middle, between any rulers and the population.
That is very rich territory for storylines and tough decisions.
Fame and infamy might accumulate, depending.

One of the rewards you might consider is companions - a rare commodity.
This growing group of 'friends' might have homes, job schedules, etc.
You might gather some to help with a task - fighting or something else.

Thinking about stuff and not really accomplishing much is my specialty.
If you have a request, I'll probably give it a try.

- Ben

Edit:
In addition to rewards you and others at TES Nexus Forums have mentioned,
NPCs might offer to teach the player unique spells or grant race-like abilities.

[QQuix]

Thanks for the ideas.
For the time being, it is brainstorm time and all are welcome.

Talking about brainstorm, reading your post gave me an idea:
When the player goes to the island the first time there will be a small group of ‘friends’ (either going with the player or they are the original inhabitants of the island).

Each will specialize in one area of production (farming, mining, etc)
Later they become the player’s ministries and take care of their respective areas while the player is away

Anyway . . . one more to the bag of ideas.

[QQuix]

OK. Here are my initial ideas about the 'TES engine' (that is The Evolving Society engine):

SOME GENERAL RULES/ALGORITHMS:

a) Things flow like this: A + B + . . . + Z >>[Process]>> Product

b) A, B . . Z are inputs for the process.
They may be raw materials, tools, places etc
Some are required, some are optional

c) Each process is a cycle that takes a fixed amount of time. Not the same for all processes
Examples:
Seeds + Land >>[Farmer]>> Food after 3 days
Axe + Trees >>[Lumberjack]>> Lumber after 1 day

d) A process will not start unless all required inputs are available

e) The quantity produced at the end of the process cycle is variable and will be affected by the presence/absence of optional inputs and external variables and events.
Conceptual examples: Availability of fertilizers would increase food production for that cycle. A completed side quest would increase a global variable (like happiness, health or Khet's Prosperity)

f) The product of a process is stored in a global, virtual warehouse and may be input to other processes, consumed or exported.


With these mechanics, the player will be able to influence the speed and direction of the society growth by:
- Assigning an NPC to perform the process
- Providing the required inputs
- Providing optional inputs to improve production
- Somehow affecting some global attributes of the society.


PROCESSES and PRODUCTS

FOOD
Food is mostly used to keep the population alive.
A quantity of food is consumed by each individual resident in the island
A vanilla farmer should be able to produce food to keep 2 people alive
Food surplus is a requirement to increase the population

Required inputs: land and seeds
Optional inputs: Fertilizers, improved tools (plough?)
Other variables: Farmer experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Different food products like: cereals supply basic food to keep the population alive, while fruit production adds to a general attribute like health or happiness
- Maybe an individual would require an increasing amount of food along his life (this would be good for the general mechanics of the engine as it would allow the society to grow fast at the beginning and slow down as it gets bigger and more sophisticated)
- A second process to produce more elaborated food, which complements the previous idea

WOOD
Wood is mostly used to build/improve houses/shops (initially) and boats/ships (later)
Wood is stored in the warehouse to be used by other processes or exported

Required inputs: Trees and tool (axe)
Optional inputs: Improved tools (?)
Other variables: NPC experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Improvements in wood production could rely on an improved shop instead of an improved lumberjack
- Maybe two processes: an initial, basic wood cutting, good to build basic houses and a second, refined process to allow improved houses and ships

STONE
Stone is needed to build/improve houses/shops (maybe roads)
Stone is stored in the warehouse to be used by other processes or exported

Required inputs: Quarry and tools
Optional inputs: Improved tools, some transportation technology
Other variables: NPC experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Other later processes may be based on stone, like stone clutter or sculptures and statues


ORE
Ore is needed to improve houses/shops (initially) and boats/ships (later)
Ore is stored in the warehouse to be used by other processes or exported
Initially, miners will explore existing caves, later they will be able to excavate new mines

Required inputs: Mine and tool
Optional inputs: Improved tools, experience or technology (a book?) to excavate mines
Other variables: NPC experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Maybe two processes: an initial, basic ore processing, good to build boats and a second, refined process to allow improved houses and ships
- Many other later processes may be based on ore, like building weapons and armors, clutter etc


Those are the basic ones I detailed so far.
Many other basic ones could be considered, like hunting or raising animals, fishing or even mud>>pots


MECHANICS OF EVOLUTION
Population growth:
The population will grow by one when:
- There is food surplus in the warehouse enough to keep the new member for a certain period
- There is an empty house

Considering all of the above, I imagine the initial evolution like this
Initial setup: An island inhabited by 2 farmers, 1 lumberjack and 1 mason.

Since the farmer produces food for 2 people, the population will not grow.
In order to start growing we need food surplus and a house (wood & stone).
The player will have to do something
Some options in this case:
- Get her hands dirty helping the farmer
- Reassigning 3 NPCs to farming and do the missing chores herself
- Just wait until there is enough wood & stone, build the house and then reassign all 4 to farming
- Go back to mainland and fetch some optional input to get more food production (like fertilizers)

Once there is the required amount of food in the warehouse, the population increases by one.
The new member occupies the new house
The player determines the profession of the new member

Based on some variables (population size?, happiness?, etc) new professions/processes will become available and the player may assign these new professions to new members.

These new professionals will bring some benefit to the island, but will also consume food, so the player will need to be careful to balance food production and population.


GEOGRAPHICAL DISTRIBUTION MECHANICS

I am planning a final scenario with a midsized town in the initial landing place (population ~12) and 3 or 4 small villages (population 4 each) scattered around the island. Max population: 25-30.
I imagine half of them (the villagers) producing raw materials and the other half living in the city (merchants, smiths, shipbuilders, whatever)
At the beginning, let's say each NPC consumes 100 foods per day and one farmer produces 200 foods per day.
At the end, maybe 6 farmers will have to produce food for 25-30, meaning, a farmer will be producing around 500 foods/day. More if we have an increasing consumption over time.
Kind of the same logic goes for the other raw materials.


Back to the initial scenario:
The initial 4 NPCs live in 4 houses at the initial landing site (where the city will grow)
New houses are built in the far villages, so the new arrivals will live there.
I mentioned improved houses before: all these houses so far are Level 1

Somewhere along the line, city professions will be available and they will displace one of the original residents from the landing site. City professionals will require Level 2 houses, so the player has to spend some resources to improve one of the original houses or build one, or the new professional will not come/appear/whatever.
Some possibilities:
- Level 3 houses
- All professionals, including the initial ones, require/demand better houses as they become more experienced in their respective careers.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

All of this, of course, will change depending on the technical or mental difficulties I may have when implementing.
Again, ideas are welcome.
And if you like any of this, feel free to use it in your mod at any time.

[worm82075]

Some very good ideas here QQ. I had a thought  j/k, any way here it is. this kinda reminds me of a strategy game and Craftybits. At some point when you obtain docks you could have random NPCs visit with the merchants. They come in to town for a day or two days if you have an inn and you could check'em out for their skills and hire the ones you like to stay and work.

The different structures that you can build could have prerequisites to be able to build them such as the pub would require the growth and harvest of grapes(wine) and wheat(beer) and an inn. The inn requires the docks and the docks require a certain surplus of lumber plus a skilled carpenter. Would be pretty cool, kinda reminds me of Colonazation or hell there are dozens of such strategy games..oh yeah Dune.

[BenNM]

...lol... Worm posted (whoosh-gone) while I was still writing my drivel.

The opening stages of what you describe remind me of a DOS game - Ultimate Domain (I think).
You could assign each person to do one kind of work for a season or something like that.

There were levels (types) of housing with different capacities and build requirements.
The list of raw materials also sounds similar: food, wood, stone, metal.
Wood took 2 seasons: Trees --> Logs ... Logs --> Lumber (wood)
Stone and metal came out of different mines, or maybe they were called drills.

Part of what I liked about the game was that there was a native population in the area.
If you had empty houses and enough food, you might attract new people.
(This helps keep the timescale for raising new workers from taking years.)

You might consider trading with native hunters to augment food stores.
The drawback here is that they would not be encouraged to settle down as workers.

Eh.  You have loads of potential in this project.
It will be interesting to see how it progresses.

[chris772]

Sounds bloody awesome and I cant wait for even a preview. But thats one hell of a long list to script. I'm gona call it 20,000 lines . PLACE YOUR BETS!

[QQuix]

Yeah, I make no secret that I am a great fan of strategy games and they more than inspired me. If I took a balance of my gaming on the last 25 years, it probably would show 75% strategy games and 20% RPG. My memory is not very good for these things, but I remember my preferred: Civ and AoE series, Colonization & CNW, Call to Power, Masters of Orion and  Alpha Centauri. "Ultimate Domain" rings a bell, but I don’t remember it. For the initial part, the big inspiration is The Settlers (I think it had a different name in the US). It has been a long time, but I still remember the cute animations and how the little guys got mad if their raw materials did not come on time.


I have not yet given much thought on how new population pops up, but, from your suggestions, I had a few potential ideas:
 - Basic professions could be filled by any NPC, no pre-req skills (like the initial natives)
 - Specialized professions could only be filled by skilled NPCs.
 - Skilled NPCs could be random visitors (loved that) or the player has to find them elsewhere
 - Or, maybe, many skill levels, which may lead us to some nice tactical decisions.
 - - Example: The player wants a smith. He could
 - - - Hire any immediately available NPC as a Level 1 smith (would take time to get to full production, but would have some of this kind of product available sooner)
 - - - Wait for a smith of a certain level coming to the island, e.g., skipping all level 2 and 3 smiths and waiting for a level 4 to show up
 - - - Go on a quest to find the required NPC somewhere
 - Not sure if replacements would be allowed or you would have to stick with your first choice for life (and help him improve his skills)
 - The visiting professionals concept has a lot of potential for a strategy game, as the player would have to plan ahead and have all requirements available so he could hire the necessary professional when he shows up.
 - This approach would require the inn and the port pretty early, but we could also implement leveled buildings. The level of the inn and port would determine the level of the visitors (probabilistic)


chris772, I have no idea, but would not be surprised. The Realistic Farming I have just released has a 700+ line script and it took me a couple of weeks to build. Besides, I am in no hurry. This 'creation' phase is the most enjoyable of all and I intend to take the most out of it.

Speaking of the Realistic Farming: Worm, have you noticed my post in the admin area? Additionally, I am now wondering if this Evolving Society should be a child board instead of a topic. As a board, I could have a thread for my (long) specs texts, another for suggestions from the community, maybe one for progress reports, . . .   

[raggidman]

Welcome QQuix - the mind boggles,  but the mouth has answers!

~What your player's 'office' should be will depend on the race/s that are present and who is in control ... etc.

The idea suggested of someone in the middle of things sounds fun - more so than being the only lord - but others may feel different.

Mayor (as above - if the town is already the main thing) ;
Chamberlain (if the island has a king) ;
Freelance Entrepreneur/Businessman/Financier (if there are various businesses) ;
Development Company Representative (note the quests in Bloodmoon to found a town) ;
Handyman ...

Location:  there is a very large island in the Bay of Topal - that would give you basic choices between Imperial,  Khajiit,  Argonian and ...   You will need it to be large as land area is required to support a city - apparently pirating is out if no quests   so that island could be it.

Suggest that you create your island the way you want and then permit others to set up other kinds of quests of the sort you do not want to ... if you are not finding enough models.

[QQuix]

A progress report I am posting on the three forums: here, TESNexus and Bethesda:

I am working on the mod several hours every day and had a good progress the last few weeks:

I have been working on two things:

1) Reworked the way buildings are handled: 
Although I am working with just a handful of buildings to test the engine, it became very difficult to have them all in the CS. I mean, every building has 3 levels, which means 3 meshes previously placed at the same spot, that are disabled/enabled as needed. Problem is that you cannot 'disable' then in the CS. All 3 are visible, one over the other. So it became too awkward to even just move them a bit, let alone choosing a proper combination of meshes.

I could imagine the pain when I had to handle a few dozen buildings and, since I think it worthwhile to invest some time now to get things easier later, I reworked the whole thing and now I only have to position an XMarker. The houses are all in a hidden cell and are moved to the XMarker as needed.

This way things got much more flexible for the testing phase: if I decide to use the AnvilHouseMC01 instead of the ChorrolHouseUpper01 for the House level3, it is just a matter of changing a line in a script (which, ultimately, could even go to an .ini file).

2) Developed a simulator
You may not imagine it, but setting "The Numbers" for this mod is one of the major challenges (and one of the major satisfactions). By "The Numbers" I mean things like
As a farm grows to levels 1-2-3, should its production be 1-2-3, or 3-4-5, or maybe 2-4-8?
A Leve1 house should cost 10xLogs and 20xStones or 20xLogs and 10xStones?

So I wrote an external program to simulate production and consumption of goods along many cycles (days) in order to get those numbers balanced. Anyway, I think I now have a decent combination.

On the simulator I am working with the following scenario:

(Disclaimer: the scenario below is just something I developed to test the Engine. It is a coherent scenario for testing purposes. The final version will, most certainly, be quite different.)

One conclusion from the simulations is that the mod should have two major cycles: a building cycle and a export cycle.
During the building cycle, you start from nothing and get to a flourishing city (the original idea).
At this point, top level materials start to pile up, since you don’t have anything else to do with them.
The export cycle starts by building an Export Office, a shipyard and a couple of shops to produce exportable goods from the surplus materials, like furniture from excess planks or weapons from metal surplus. The main result is money in the treasury, that will be used to build/upgrade the player's Villa, I guess. This cycle is still in the theoretical stage - nothing really done here - ideas welcome, as always.

BUILDING CYCLE
Four 'building' categories: Houses, Places, Buildings and Improvements.

HOUSES:
Where the NPCs live. You have to have a free house in order to hire a new NPC.
One NPC can live in a level 1 house, two in a level 2 house and three in a level 3 house.

PLACES:
Farms, wood cutting areas, quarries and mines.
Produce food and raw materials (logs, raw stones and ore). 

CITY BUILDINGS:
Specialized buildings to process raw materials or provide services.
Each building needs an NPC to run the business.
ATM they are:
Raw materials processing shops: Sawmill - Masonry - Stone works - Foundry - Blacksmith
Service providers: Boarding House/Inn/Hotel - Guards - Chapel/Church/Cathedral - Health facilities
Exporting facilities - Import/Export  office, Shipyard and additional buildings to produce exportable goods

CITY IMPROVEMENTS
Granary - required to store food
Sewer - required to upgrade buildings
Dock - Parks - City lights - Paved Streets - Paved Roads - self explanatory   

I am working with a 'General Satisfaction' indicator composed of three other indicators:
- Health satisfaction - affected by the level of the sewer and health care facilities
- Security satisfaction - affected by the level of the guard station and city lights
- General happiness - affected by the level of the parks and religious facilities


Now I plan to place the concepts/numbers/buildings from the simulator into a test esp
I may have something to show you in a couple of weeks.


PS. And I would appreciate if you could suggest meshes that could be used as a Granary. Ideally 3 meshes, one for each level. If not, a single mesh scaled to 3 different sizes will do fine. 

PPS. Suggestion to name the three level of the health facility are welcome. I am using First Aid / Doctor's Office / Hospital, but I don't like it. (I like one-word names)

[QQuix]

OK. Here we go: the first Alpha version of The Evolving Society Engine Test Environment - TESETE

The main reasons for the release is to help you guys getting a better understanding of the general purpose of the project. Keep in mind that every single click while playing TESETE represents something much bigger in the final mod, from simple tasks to whole side quests.

I think you will like it, provided you don’t raise your expectations too much and always remember it is an environment to be used during the engine development. And is the very first version.

Actually, there is only part of the engine: the buildings construction, upgrades, dependencies and costs are implemented. NPCs are not implemented in this version.

The esp is kind of hidden among my other conceptual mods in TESNexus, as it is intended only to you, the reader of the discussion forums. Not to the general public. As so, there is no readme in the archive. The only, quite reduced (on purpose) documentation is below. If you have read at least part of this forum, you know what it is all about.

Here goes some information that will allow you to play the mod:
-   You can play the whole mod without moving from the spot where you arrive.
-   Time flashes - a whole game day takes less than 10 seconds (it is a test environment, remember?) so you can complete the game in 15-30 minutes
-   Click on the little house at your feet to choose what to build.
-   There are a few options to your left. The activator name should be self explanatory. Turn off street lights if your FPS drops too much.
-   Look up to see your warehouse contents. The warehouse holds your Food and building materials
-   Service buildings and city improvements have no effect in this version but they are needed to complete the mod.
-   To complete the mod, you must build all 48 buildings and upgrade them all to level 3.
-   As an incentive, I have a little treat for you when you complete the task. I hope you like it.
-   Look right to see your progress - try to get to the top of the graph before leaving the graph area to the right (about 100 game days).
-   Keep in mind that this is an environment to test the engine: most things are not in scale and many things are symbolic: a tower in the middle of the woods means the lumberjack at that place has been upgraded to Level 3 and has a watch tower to prevent forest fires.   

Game play and strategy:
-   After you activate the mod, load a game and press the Right Mouse Button to go to TESETE.
-   If you leave your arrival place, you may use the RMB at any time to go back there.
-   Places and buildings have one (virtual) worker that needs a house to live and one unit of food per day.
-   Houses Level 1 may have one occupant - Level2 = 2 occupants - Level3 = 3 occupants.
-   You start the game with 5xFood and 5xLogs - use them wisely.
-   You can get stuck if you run out of logs to build a house and don’t have a house to hire a lumberjack.
-   Same thing with Food and Farms.
-   Don’t build/upgrade the Marble Works to the same level of the Masonry, unless you have plenty of CutStone in stock, as, with both at the same level, the Marble Works consumes all the CutStone the Masonry produces
-   The little moving thing at the edge of the platform represents the time of the day.



Some details

WAREHOUSE
-   The warehouse holds your Food and seven building materials: Logs, Planks, RawStones, CutStones, Marble, Ore, Ingots and MetalParts (the metallic building materials like nails, hinges, locks, etc)
-   A large, 1-per-row object at the bottom = 100 x units
-   A medium, 2-per-row object = 10 x units
-   A small, 3-per-row object at the top = 1 x unit
-   Therefore if you see 1 large cheese, 5 apples and 7 strawberries, you have 157 units of Food in the warehouse
BUILDINGS
-   There are five types of 'buildings' - Names are self explanatory (I hope)
-   HOUSES
-   PRODUCTION PLACES - Farms, Forests, Quarries and Mines
-   PROCESSING BUILDINGS -  Sawmill, Masonry, MarbleWorks, Foundry, Blacksmith
-   SERVICE BUILDINGS - BoardingHouse-Inn-Hotel, Police, Chapel-Church-Cathedral,  Healer-Apothecary-Hospital, Import-Export Office and Shipyard
-   CITY IMPROVEMENTS - Granary, Sewer, Docks, Parks, Street Lights, Paved Streets and Paved Roads
 
Processes costs and production:
-   FARMS - No input - Production: Level 1 - Produce 4XFood - Level2 = 6xFood - Level3 = 8xFood
-   Forests, Quarries and Mines - No input - Production according to level: L1=1xunit, L2=2xUnits and L3=3xUnits
-   Production Buildings - Input and Output the same as the level. E.g. Level1 Sawmill consumes 1xLog and produces 1xPlank, Level2 Sawmill consumes 2xLogs and produces 2xPlanks, etc.

Building costs - generally, the higher the level, the more sophisticated the materials:
-   Houses -
-   Level 1 = 1xLog 
-   Level 2 = 1xPlank + 1xRawStone
-   Level 3 = 1xPlank + 1xCutStones + 1xMetalParts
-   Places
-   Level 1 = FREE -
-   Level 2 = 1xPlank + 1xRawStone
-   Level 3 = 1xPlank + 1xCutStones + 1xMetalParts
-   Everything else
-   Level 1 = 1xLog + 1xRawStone 
-   Level 2 = 2xPlanks + 2xCutStones
-   Level 3 = 3xPlanks + 3xMarble + 3xMetalParts


DISCLAIMERS
Make sure you DON’T CONTINUE YOUR GAME after going to TESETE - There is no way out:  another reminder that you must continue your normal play from a save before you visited the test environment worldspace.
Save&load have not been much tested - not sure what to expect.
The scripted building animations sometimes crashed the game when building many things at once during tests. Normal play wont have nearly as many as during tests. Turn them off if you need.
There is a fair amount of comments in the scripts, but also a large amount of debug code that I decided not to remove (it is an Alpha release for testing purposes only, anyway). And most are messy. No use to clean up now, as I am planning to review everything in the near future.
I hope I didn’t forget to disable/comment any test code.

REQUIREMENTS and INSTALLATION
Requires OBSE v0016 and PLUGGY
In the archive there is the normal Data folder for standard install (just the esp an a few meshes in Data/Meshes/QQTES)
There is also a Pluggy folder  containing the mod .INI files. This folder must be copied to your ". . .My Documents\My Games\Oblivion" folder. After the copy you should have the INI files in ". . . My Documents\My Games\Oblivion\Pluggy\User Files"
 
CREDITS and Thanks
-   To everyone that contributed in the forums
-   SkyRanger-1 for the trigonometry code
-   TomBrightblade for the instruction on how to keep the apples in the air (MiscItem >> static)
-    I know there are more, but memory is bad and discipline to keep notes is worse.


Have fun! ! !

[raggidman]

Looks highly innovative QQuix 

[QQuix]

I've been working on things leading this mod almost every day and I suppose I could call this phase a milestone.

So . . . progress report time:

WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE
Three very important 'building blocks' completed and ready:

1. NPC ACE - A system to have total control of the NPCs in the island. They may interact, if necessary, and they will keep working (and producing) even if not loaded. Besides, the system will allow for many secondary, but cool, possibilities, like guards dynamically choosing their armor.

2. The Construction System - the 'mechanics' for creating, replacing and removing buildings is ready. With this system, the player can build her city from ground up, starting with a few, cheap houses to a thriving city as big as she can afford with available resources. It will be possible to add walls to the city, trees to the parks and sidewalks and lights to the streets. The system is in Beta test and will be released as a separate mod soon.

3. The Island - I accepted the offer to use the island created by the 'NPC with Jobs' team. It is a most beautiful island that has all we could wish. Still pending authorization to do small adjustments to the landscape, if this proves necessary for some reason along the development. 


NEXT STEPS:
1. The Production System - definition of the raw materials, the superior materials that can be created by combining them and their use to create new buildings. There was a production system in the prototype, but OBSE has evolved so much since, that I plan to start from scratch. And this system will also depend on. . .

2. The Lore - There are A LOT of ideas and suggestions proposed in the three mod forums. I, now, plan to classify/merge/organize them all and present a summary of choices to be discussed in the forums. So, if you still have some idea or suggestion to present, this is the time.

3. Further down the road:
- 3a. The relationship of Buildings-NPCs-Productivity (as in which buildings will make which NPCs happier and more productive and which NPCs less satisfied with the player's administration)
- 3b. Look for a team to put everything together.
 
MAJOR CONCERNS

I have the solution for the LOD problem: the city will be visible from anywhere. This is out of the way, now.

So the major problem left is how to make NPCs go from one place to another without bumping into buildings the player has placed in their way. Luckily, scruggsy is willing to look for a way to add functionalities to OBSE to dynamically change the pathgrid. If this fails for any reason, I either (1) have to create code to mimic the engine path finding (very complex and time consuming) or (2) pre-determine the city and villages locations and restrict the player to place buildings only in predefined 'lots' (which is against the very concept of the mod)

A minor concern, for which I don't expect a solution and we will have to live with, is the land texture. If you place your city where the land is green, the streets will stay green.

And, of course, the big question: what size of mainframe we will need for playing this mod, when everything is running at the same time. LOL.


Ok, then . . . as Don Quixote used to sing:  ". . . And the wild winds of fortune will carry me onward, whithersoever they blow. . . "

[This same text has been posted in the three mod forums: Bethesda Softworks Forums - TES Nexus Forums - The Wormhole Forums ]

[worm82075]

Sounds really cool, glad to hear the part about making use of NPCWJ's island. Do you plan on bringing your team here and developing?

If so I think this is big and should be front page news. Know that we can now offer your team a private shoutbox for development.

Thanks for striving to reach new heights in Oblivion modding and most especially thanks for calling the Wormhole home.

Best regards,
Worm

[QQuix]

I am still months away from the time I will need a team, but I thank you for the offer.

[worm82075]

We'll be here for you if and when your ready. 

[raggidman]

Heh - and if you consider yourself part of our educational community you would have to be Professor QQuix 

[QQuix]

NEW MOD SPECS

First of all, I want to thank again everybody that posted on the mod forums. I've been classifying the ideas and suggestions from the community (mine included). I must have read every single phrase at least half a dozen times and I think I got them well organized for future reference.

I had the intention of organizing them and post them here for discussion, so you guys would help me to select them and end up with a coherent set. But the fact is that there is SO MUCH (50+ A4 pages in small font and no margin) that the idea of a public discussion became impractical.

So I took all the ideas that were related to the mod mechanics and decided which will be in the first version and which went to a wish list for future versions.

But (1) the main storyline, (2) the reason for the player to be there in the first place and (3) side quests to get special objects or knowledge are still open for discussion and suggestions, as long as they are coherent with the specs presented below.

I updated the first post with the new specifications, as I see them today.

[worm82075]

I certainly hope you gather a team unto you because you my friend will make a fantastic leader. 

[raggidman]

gimme ideas - I will  play around with them - come up with  brilliant ideas and be totally  when I am told 
  they are impractical ^^

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